Curse

Cebe · Sep 20, 2007, 12:14 PM // 12:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cobalt

They are so expensive because they don't drop, the last one I got was in Prophecies like a over year ago, never got one to drop in Faction's , or NightFall, and have not seen one yet in EotN

I saw a couple drop in Nightfall, but nothing for about 6 months or so as far as Superior Vigor goes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kusandaa

Which is why my melee/ranged aren't getting sup runes. My casters have it, altough. I like seeing big numbers, and I can kite.

Surely if you're kiting, you're not doing your job, and so the superior rune becomes worthless? It's like Mhenlo in Eye of the North. The monsters LOVE to target him, nearly every time. Noone get's healed. Why? Mhenlo's kiting.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oso Minar

I frequently hear (and often say) "Why the heck do the monsters always come after me?" by those characters with low health. I think it's time to switch up to something a little sturdier.

If only we could check what the henchmen wield to make sure they didn't give Mhenlo a -20HP inscription...because that's all I ever hear him say.

Antheus · Sep 20, 2007, 12:16 PM // 12:16

In an ideal group, just about every can run 3 superior runes. After all, tanks will block the agro.

In real world, high health = good. I'm not talking about Ascalon in normal mode.

Everything is fine, until someone gets a bit of DP. Then, a character with 560 health will be down to some 500, but a character with 430 health will be down to 350. And that does make a difference.

There's plenty of areas, where you get hit for 250-500. And having lots of health means dying in a single hit, or surviving long enough to be healed and protected.

In GW:EN, there's other dangers as well. Life stealing, ranger spikes, those Johun melee, Twisting Jaws. You cannot effectively and consistently prot against those.

There are breaking points in attributes. 14 is usually enough.

Quote:

Barbs, for example, does +14 dmg per phys hit at 14 curses; at 16 curses (using Awaken the Blood), that goes to +17

A 10% increase, to one target. It works decently against bosses, and can come handy in combat. But it's not game making or breaking.

But since you're using an enchantment, that one can get shattered for some 120-140 damage.

Quote:

PvE rejoices in numbers and maximum dps, and in which area does the superior rune actually proof itself as a disadvantage?

Elite dungeons.

Last mission in NF, where Abaddon hits entire group for 400 damage.

Hard mode.

Anything with life stealing, degen, armor ignoring damage (shards of orr comes to mind).

In all those, you can run the group as holy trinity, and pray that tank doesn't lose agro. If that does happen, then the group wipes anyway. But for anything semi-balanced, high health comes handy.

Zahr Dalsk · Sep 20, 2007, 12:23 PM // 12:23

I ALWAYS take a superior rune. Stronger necro minions, more ele damage, more warrior damage (and more health from Endure Pain + Defy Pain, please don't say it's a bad elite since in teams with lots of warriors I'm usually the last one standing in a wipe and I put out a nice damage rate), stronger Splinter Weapon, etc.

75 health loss? Doesn't matter when I use my hero monks, they are very good.

Moloch Vein · Sep 20, 2007, 12:24 PM // 12:24

I believe that contrary to some poster above me, superior attribute runes are well worth it in PvE, while minors/majors should be used for most occasions in PvP.

As someone said, while in normal mode, if aggro is controlled correctly the squishies will be pretty safe. Actually this is mostly true in hard mode too, what with the snares generally used, etc. However, if the monster does get a choice, he will go for the low-AL targets as a priority.

It's important to understand the difference between HP levels between the monsters you fight in high-level PvE and the players, as well as the relative inability of monsters in PvE to coordinate spikes. Generally speaking if you're talking about getting "spiked" in PvE we're talking about an insane damage monster skill. 500 or 600 hit points here aren't going to make too bloody much of a difference here, if PS isn't up.

The difference, for example, between SS at 13 and 16 might seem trivial, but in fact, it is anything but. The damage increase is exponential. The curse will both stay longer and do more damage per second. And, this is a situation that's more open to debate than minion mastery. Someone asked, what difference does one extra minion make? Not too much, but the extra LEVEL of the minions... that makes one hell of a lot of difference.

This said, I have lately begun to invest more and more in hit points for some jobs, since I have learned to live with less and less energy. This however does not mean forsaking superior attribute runes, merely switching attunements to vitaes, radiants to survivors, +E mods to +HP mods.

DreamRunner · Sep 20, 2007, 12:32 PM // 12:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zahr Dalsk

I ALWAYS take a superior rune. Stronger necro minions, more ele damage, more warrior damage (and more health from Endure Pain + Defy Pain, please don't say it's a bad elite since in teams with lots of warriors I'm usually the last one standing in a wipe and I put out a nice damage rate), stronger Splinter Weapon, etc.

75 health loss? Doesn't matter when I use my hero monks, they are very good.

"I put out a nice damage rate"

Quru · Sep 20, 2007, 12:36 PM // 12:36

Superior Scythe mastery rune is necessity for my derv. If I use some Avatar at PvP Superior Mysticism rune is must too. (At PvE i use that perfect sunspear skill :P ). My Necro can't live without Superior Curses and Superior Soul Reaping. Superior Divine Favour is needed too.

Well, same question for PERFECT weapon mods. Do you REALLY need that +30hp axe grip for 5k when you can get +29hp for 500g? Is it really worth it? You are not weaker with that nearly perfect than with perfect. BUT! This is a game. People just WANT good equipment. And when you have two superior runes, you have to equip Superior Vigor rune. It costs pretty much, but when you have other superior runes to boost ur attributes to PERFECT, you think that it is really needed. And then it is. That's why superior vigor runes costs so much. Simple.

Moloch Vein · Sep 20, 2007, 12:41 PM // 12:41

The only place where I can see an attraction in a superior Soul Reaping rune is when you run an MM with Masochism. For any other build I believe it is a disservice.

bungusmaximus · Sep 20, 2007, 12:41 PM // 12:41

Nice thread

I never use sup runes, 75 health is a bit too much for me, I tend to use majors on rangers and casters and minors on monk/melee. when a critter slips past the melee he will always target some caster and the monk will still have his hands free to heal him.

Even on an mm I don't use sup runes, it is true that he can maintain 10 minions that way, but there aren't 10 minions alive ALL THE TIME, that should be taking into consideration when you are trying to calculate DPS.

IMMORTAlMITCH · Sep 20, 2007, 12:43 PM // 12:43

In PvE there's no reason NOT to use superior runes unless you're solo farming or something.

Prot spirit becomes more effective with less health.

Moloch Vein · Sep 20, 2007, 12:48 PM // 12:48

I repeat, ad nauseum, that you should upgrade your MMs, whether real or hero, to 12+3+1 Death Magic. What should be considered when trying to calculate damage output is the difference between a level 17 and a level 18 Bone Fiend, and the difference between a 15 and 16 Order of Undeath, among other things.

Minion masters *should not run* high maximum HP. A moderate maximum HP makes maintaining the army much easier.

Cebe · Sep 20, 2007, 01:04 PM // 13:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by IMMORTAlMITCH

In PvE there's no reason NOT to use superior runes unless you're solo farming or something.

Prot spirit becomes more effective with less health.

By that logic, everyone should use a 55HP setup?

Protective Spirit loses it's effectiveness when high amounts of enchantment stripping is around, especially Necromancers with Chilblains, not to mention you need a lot of monks in your party to "maintain" it on everyone. It's not the cheapest skill in the world either come to that.

Yes, you can easily "get by" in normal mode PvE when everyone has superior runes. But when it comes to everyone using Superior Runes...like I said in the OP, there is no incentive for monsters to leave the monk alone...

I'm liking this viewpoint:

Quote:

Originally Posted by bungusmaximus

I never use sup runes, 75 health is a bit too much for me, I tend to use majors on rangers and casters and minors on monk/melee. when a critter slips past the melee he will always target some caster and the monk will still have his hands free to heal him.

Avarre · Sep 20, 2007, 01:14 PM // 13:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by IMMORTAlMITCH

In PvE there's no reason NOT to use superior runes unless you're solo farming or something.

Prot spirit becomes more effective with less health.

The reason you do not use this logic is because the number of PvE monks that will preprot you with prot spirit can be counted on one hand.

Lagg · Sep 20, 2007, 01:21 PM // 13:21

Absolutely no reason to use Superior Runes in most situations, unless you're really spreading your points thin.

Health is always the last line of defense.

Even Protective Spirit can't save you from degen or lifesteal.

Speaking of which, Protective Spirit (and Shelter, to a lesser extent) just needs to get nerfed already. This 55 nonsense has been going on for years, it's amazing that they still haven't fixed it.

Protective Spirit needs to calculate 10% of your base Health (instead of your actual health, as it works now) which is 480 Health at level 20. So yes, PS would become "weaker" as you level up but become "stronger" if you have more than 480 Health.

I wouldn't take Death Penalty into account, since it would mean that higher DP = stronger PS, which is also nonsensical.

glountz · Sep 20, 2007, 01:41 PM // 13:41

I use min runes in PvP.
I use sup runes in PVE.
PvP is not the "base model" for PVE if you ask me. People tend to much to reproduce habits they take in PvP for PVE thinking its the right choice as it saves their butt in PvP.
IMHO in PVE:
For monks, 600+ HP is the norm.
For every other character, use sup runes, with minor helm ones aside. The dedicated "tank" can even take more runes to lower his health so he will be the only one targeted.
If you meet a hard mob, like a boss ele, switch to minor runes.
If not, there is no need to stick with minor. If your monk can't handle a 480 HP guy in PVE, I seriously question his abilities. There is no 700+ damage spikes from mobs in PVE, excepted bosses. Remember that PVE is grind. The couple +damage you will inflict will be the couple + seconds you will gain. A MM in Minor will deal significantly less damage through his mobs, as well as the SF ele, the Dragonslasher, the SS necro...
Unless you plan to go on very hard zones, like vainquishing (and yet...) or DoA or Urgoz/whatever, stick to Sups and switch to minor if you face big mobs/have DP.

bungusmaximus · Sep 20, 2007, 01:48 PM // 13:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by glountz

I use min runes in PvP.
I use sup runes in PVE.
PvP is not the "base model" for PVE if you ask me. People tend to much to reproduce habits they take in PvP for PVE thinking its the right choice as it saves their butt in PvP.

Depends, monsters in hard mode DO spike, same as in PvP. On the other hand, taking a good PvP skill like frenzy on your warrior in PvE is downright daft. Same as I would prefer triple chop over eviscerate in PvE.

NeHoMaR · Sep 20, 2007, 01:53 PM // 13:53

My opinion about professions that MUST have 16 always in the main attribute:

- Necromacer // Minions (no discussion), Hexes (noticeable difference, specially elites), Blood (really noticeable because the low damage it does)

- Elementalist (if doing AoE) // the difference in damage is really noticeable in time, time of the burning, etc.

- Others professions not really important. Exceptions: Monk (smiting), Mesmer (some builds), and Ritualist (channeling).

william1975 · Sep 20, 2007, 01:55 PM // 13:55

across my characters and heroes it varies widely.

Really depends on build too, on timed skills i like to have them up fr as long as possible, so if it the case that a superior would cause somethign to be constant rather than witing a 5 secs for recharge i will use the sup if necesarry.

My mesmer is running abut in armour desigend for fast casting, so it has sup fast casting, with sup vigor, becuase i use it with secondary profs mainly i dont have any other runes on it for attributes, instead i use them to up health and energy. this works well to give me a much faster caster.

My MM usually have a sup death on them, though some of the heroes have major, due to expense. when using a sup though i always put on a major ore sup vigor,

Moloch Vein · Sep 20, 2007, 01:56 PM // 13:56

No PvE monster groups "spike" except through sheer luck. There is no coordinated effort to their behavior.

bungusmaximus · Sep 20, 2007, 01:59 PM // 13:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moloch Vein

No PvE monster groups "spike" except through sheer luck. There is no coordinated effort to their behavior.

Well then I fought some pretty lucky monsters, believe me, I've seen numerous occasions in which high health works.

Cebe · Sep 20, 2007, 02:04 PM // 14:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moloch Vein

No PvE monster groups "spike" except through sheer luck. There is no coordinated effort to their behavior.

In Hard Mode though, they tend to make a bee-line for whoever seems weakest. As a consequence, when they open fire on that player, they hit hard, all at once, thus spiking.

I guess having HM monsters "spike" who you want them to (the high-armour target) is all part of the game.